The Fresh Loaf

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Retarding in Fridge for Final Proof?

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Dutchbaker's picture
Dutchbaker

Retarding in Fridge for Final Proof?

I have been making the Essential's Columbia bread lately.  I typically ferment for 4 hrs, round & rest for 10 min., shape & proof for 4 hrs, and then bake.   I normally start first thing Sunday morning, so we have fresh bread for dinner.  I was wondering if I can ferment & shape Saturday night, and let the dough proof in the fridge overnight for 8 hrs, and I could bake the loaves first thing in the morning.  Has anyone had luck with retarding in the fridge for the final proof?

Comments

zolablue's picture
zolablue

Glezer actually writes more detailed info about that in her book Blessing of Bread so I started doing it with recipes from Artisan Baking.  She likes this method because you get the messy part of bread making out of the way and the next day all you need to do is take out the loaves at the appropriate time, let them warm and ferment for 2 - 3 hours, and bake.  It almost makes you feel giddy!

It is also supposed to create a more sour flavor and the bread will develop more of the bubbles in the finished loaf.  Here is some Columbia I baked a couple weeks ago.  I love this bread.  Now I just need help with slashing.  One out of 3 loaves being slashed properly is not good enough!

(Btw, Glezer says you can leave the shaped loaves to ferment in the fridge for up to 48 hours.)

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Zolablue,

Great looking crust! Is this a product of convection? I can burn the crust and I can get crispy crusts but I'll be darned if I can get such a nice sheen and Carmel color. Very nice!

Eric

tigressbakes's picture
tigressbakes

general rule about up to 48 hours in the fridge for fermentation time after final proof OK for all breads or just the Columbia bread?

 

Because I was wondering that myself lately. It would be so much better to be able to bake it first thing in the morning rather than at night which is what I find myself doing most times.

zolablue's picture
zolablue

Glezer is referring to sourdough breads in general.  She says, "...just after shaping the bread to cover it well with plastic wrap to prevent the skin from drying and put it in the coldest part of the refrigerator, usually the bottom shelf.  The dough can be chilled for 8 to 48 hours.

She says that depending on the consistency of the dough, sometimes the loaves are ready to bake immediately after refrigeration, and sometimes they need an hour or two at room temperature to finish rising (the softer the dough, the more it will have proofed in the refrigerator).  There is no problem in baking cold dough; they do not need to come to room temperature..."

I have used this method several times but I am still having a lot of trouble learning the proper proofing of sourdough.  I guess it all comes down to practice.  At any rate, there are certain breads I now plan that I'll bake the second day after I've prepared the evening levain.  It just makes it so nice on bake day.

yiuma's picture
yiuma

Actually, the dough will continue to rise after you have put it in the fridge because the centre of the dough is still at room temp . As the centre get to the temp of the fridge ,fermentation is slowed down very much but I guess it will not really stop totally. If the shaped dough is put in the fridge for too long .will it be over proofed? or  I should deduce the yeast amount ? I have tried putting the dough in the fridge for the second fermentation for up to 48 hours and the dough would bave triple in volumn. After taking out it will be deflated and shaped and let doubled before baking. I have not do so for shaped dough.

Dutchbaker's picture
Dutchbaker

Thanks Zolablue for all the great feedback.  I will give it a try this weekend.  I hope mine turn out as beautiful as yours shown above.  I like the dark blistery crust.  This bread must have been really talking to you, when you took it out of the oven.  You can see the fine little cracks.  I love that sound of the crisp crust cracking, when you first take the loaves out of the oven.  Thanks again for the tips and inspiring photos.

Dutchbaker

Susan's picture
Susan

So, you like dark, blistery crusts, huh? Here's one I call the Football!! Can't get much darker or more blistery than this! Actually, it's an NK loaf, and the crumb was very nice indeed.

FootballFootball

Susan

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I just went back and looked at some of your images and I think I see the telltale signs of a fan in the back of your oven! Try as I may I have been unable to match your beautiful crust color. Are you using convection?

Eric

Susan's picture
Susan

Just kidding! I do have a Miele 27" convection oven, but am not using the convection feature with my breads. The setting I use is called Surround, and "is a premium conventional baking mode. The oven heats with both the upper and lower heating elements without the convection fan." I use the second runners from the bottom, and bake at 450 F with a 20-30 minute preheat with the Miele tray in the oven. No extra steam. Just the Bowl. Maybe I have a Magic Bowl? Sorry you are not getting the rich color. Keep plying me with questions, perhaps we'll find an answer.

Susan

Susan's picture
Susan

Not retarded and not as blistery.

Son of Football

Son of Football

Susan

redivyfarm's picture
redivyfarm

That is still a very nice loaf! I had to skip the retard on the bread I'm calling Foosball and hope to repeat the baking this weekend for better results. Thanks for sharing your photos, it is very helpful.

Susan's picture
Susan

This one was refrigerated for only a few hours, maybe four or five. It seems more blistery than Son of Football. Poor research tactics, but maybe it is the refrigeration that promotes the blisters.

Another Football SiblingAnother Football Sibling

Susan

Rudolph's picture
Rudolph

Using only minimal amounts of yeast, I make a poolish (sponge) and let it ferment at cool room temperature overnight, In the morning I add the remaining ingredients and set in the fridge (icebox)* til the following day when I knead, shape and set loaves in bread form(s) and allow to rise til double in size. This may take anything from 5 to 8 hours or more. The long slow ferment allows the natural taste giving esthers to develop and adds to the flavour of the bread. It also aids glutin development. This is true whether using Cultivated or Wild yeast

Rudolph

* for american readers

zolablue's picture
zolablue

Ooooooooooooh, Susan, from one girl to another girl, that is one gorgeous hunka bread!  WOW!!! 

 

I do love the dark blistery crusts and, yes, dutchbaker, those things were talking to me. The Essential’s Columbia is so flavorful because of the toasted wheat germ and also the barley malt syrup which adds color, too.  I was surprised at how dark it gets.  

 

Yiuma, I don’t think there should be a concern about shaped loaves getting over proofed in that time period.  But it is important to refrigerate the shaped loaves immediately and not allow them to sit at room temp before you do that. 

 

Something else I was going to mention is that Glezer also says (I know I sound like a broken record but I have gotten so much great info from her books) that fermenting the shaped loaves not only causes more acetic acid to be produced, thus more sour flavor, but it contributes to the blistered crust and a richly flavored crumb.  So there are a several benefits including the fun of waking up in the morning and thinking, gee, I just have to take my loaves out and bake ‘em. Gawd, I love that. 

 

Susan, now please tell me what is that loaf of yours?  What recipe – fess up?  How did you get it to look so delectable?  I want to know!  Also, it looks like you did not slash it.  Give up the info.  I want to make one just like that! 

Susan's picture
Susan

It's JMonkey's No-Knead Sourdough Recipe:

  • "Sourdough starter (white at 100% hydration): 100 grams
  • White flour: 450 grams
  • Water 310 grams
  • Salt: 10 grams

The procedure is the largely the same as the original recipe, with just a few changes. I let it ferment for 12 hours and then give it a full stretch and fold. I let it rest 15 minutes, covered, and then shape it into a boule. I then let it rise for about 2.5 to 3 hours at roughly 85 degrees F (I've got a makeshift proofbox made of a picnic cooler, boiling water and a thermometer with a long cord). A nice slashing on top and then into a hot cloche at 500 degrees F, though a big casserole or dutch oven will do just fine." Thanks, JMonkey!

On this particular loaf, I did 3 S&F's before shaping, rested 15 minutes, raised it in a vertical bowl right side up on parchment in the refrigerator overnight, snipped it with my kitchen shears, baked it under my 4L Pyrex bowl, and lowered the temp from 450 to 400F after taking off the bowl (about 30 minutes under the bowl and 30 minutes after). Le Creuset should give you the same baking, I would think.

Oh, I used all high-gluten flour, 13.4-13.8 protein.

I'll bet you all those bubbles are the result of the fridge overnight. I like bubbles, too.

Thanks for the help you give all of us, Zolablue! I'm just a dabbler next to you.

Susan

zolablue's picture
zolablue

No, no, nobody is a dabbler next to me least of all you.  Now I realize you are the one who showed those FABU photos of the loaf baking under that glass bowl.  I'm going to look that up again. 

I have to keep saying this but I feel it is important.  I have only been baking bread for 4 months.  All I'm doing is reading recipes and taking lessons and advice from other bread bakers offering their knowledge and help.  I'm just working at being a bread-baking fool.  But I have a long, long way to go and much to learn.  Trust me on that. :o)

PS...Am I one of the only people who has not yet tried (or eaten) no-knead bread?!

Susan's picture
Susan

You're a "natural," Zolablue, so just give up and take the praise! I'll keep looking to you for innovation.

Susan

P.S.  You must try JMonkey's NK SD recipe.  I've gotten more compliments on that recipe than on anything else, and I've shared it with several friends.

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

I love the blistery look -- what beautiful bread, Susan! Glad to see the conversion is working for other folks as well. I'd not thought of retarding it, but looks like popping the bread in the fridge adds quite a bit. Nice!

Susan's picture
Susan

Thanks, JMonkey, couldn't have done it without you!

Susan

redivyfarm's picture
redivyfarm

As a maiden baker, I don't have enough experience to have a preferred treatment for crust.  We want all the details, Susan!

Susan's picture
Susan

Susan

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Great Subject!

Zola and Susan I'm not sure what you would do for an encore with your loaves looking like that.  Bravo!  I have had a few issues using this method.  In Crust and Crumb Reinhart says to let the shaped dough rise until 1 1/2 times original size before fridging.  It always seems to turn out overproofed for me doing this.  I have also had problems trying to retard large Miches.  I think it takes so long for the interior to cool it ends up overproofed as well.  I am going to give your method of shaping and immediatly fridging a whirl.  The idea of being able to make in the morn and bake the next day is very exciting for those of us with little ones especially.  Do you know what temp your fridge is?  Mine is around 38.  I also might try using cool water and keeping the dough cool during proofing and folding of my larger loaves.  Thanks for sharing a great tip and even better pictures!

Da Crumb Bum 

Susan's picture
Susan

Thanks, Crumby. You don't mind if I use the diminutive, do you? I put the Football loaf in the fridge immediately only because it was late and I was ready for bed. My horse sense tells me it will still rise a bit before it cools off and slows down. The fridge is 37 F, according to the little green numbers in there! I didn't bake it the next morning until it had been out of the fridge about 3 hours.

BTW, I enjoy reading your comments.

Susan

zolablue's picture
zolablue

crumb bum - I just read in Hamelman's book, Bread, page 151, where he also addresses this and says:

"...Breads that are intended to retard overnight have different needs.  Since fermentation will continue during refrigeration, the bread can't be left at room temperature for too long.  If the dough is cool and the fermentation sluggish, the bread can receive upwards of 1 hour of floor time before retarding.  During warm months, or with especially vigorous cultures, the bread might be better if the loaves are retarded as soon as they are formed..."

He then goes on to offer much more technical information.  So I would think based on both Glezer and Hamelman's remarks it is not a good idea to allow the dough to rise as long as Reinhart says to do.

I am not sure of the temp in my fridge but sometimes things freeze so it may be a bit colder than it should be. :o)  I know when I retard loaves overnight I cannot see any rise at all when I take them out the next day.  Then I have a hard time figuring out just how long to leave them before baking.   Generally, I let them have about 3 hours.  Even so, it is my favorite way to bake bread.  Once I get the proofing times right and learn proper slashing I'm going to be a happy camper.

tigressbakes's picture
tigressbakes

than I am taking up sports!

YUMMMY! that looks so good.

I have not tried the  no knead bread yet (one of two people left??)

I planned to this week but got sidetracked by Floyd's Honey Whole Wheat and Dan Lepard's Mill Loaf....

 so much bread so little time!

Susan's picture
Susan

Do make the NK bread with the JMonkey's recipe below. It's not a peanut butter-and-jelly bread, but it is a crowd pleaser. My neighbor told me tonight that the Football was the best loaf I ever made! I'm going to have trouble sleeping tonight with all this adulation!

Susan

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

#3  is me.   I could just eat the pictures ... I can hear the crack of the crust.   My o my   --Mini Oven



crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hello Again

Yes, you can call me Crumby or Bumby or if you were around me today it would probably be Crabby.  (Its a long story)  Back to bread.  When you use this method on a bread that calls for a firm starter to be built the day before baking, could you omit this step?  When you fridge for 24-48 hours you are going to be building flaver like you would making a firm starter.  The problem I see with this is I don't think the dough would begin fermenting for a long time.  For example the Miche I make has only 35g of liquid starter.  After you make the firm you have 300g.  This leads me to ask does the bread need to be very activly fermenting during folding to make good crumb structure?  Yes I am trying to skip another step.  Thanks

Crabby

zolablue's picture
zolablue

This recipe calls for only 30 grams of a firm sourdough starter.  It is not a building of a firm starter but a starter that is kept as firm.  You simply make a levain the night before using that firm starter, just as you would with a liquid or batter starter, but the starter amount is still 30 grams firm starter - not to be confused with levain or "recipe starter. "

I baked this bread again this morning.  I made the dough yesterday afternoon.  it is a very dense, heavy dough but when it ferments it really expands and becomes very light.  I suppose I'm not answering your question.  ???  :o)

I'm sure Mountaindog has made this recipe with a liquid starter.  You might want to do a search and see how she does it.

mse1152's picture
mse1152

I'm making my standby sourdough this weekend, but I want to try retarding it so I can mix on Saturday and bake on Sunday.  Most of you have said you retard the shaped loaves, but I want to try retarding the unshaped dough after 3 S&F cycles.  It's as much a fridge space consideration as anything.  I don't think I can make enough room for 2 shaped loaves, but I can fit a bowl or oiled bag with dough in it.

It sounds like I could take the dough out of the fridge, wait 2-3 hours, then shape, do the final rise, and bake. Has anyone done it this way?  Is retarding shaped loaves preferred for some reason?

Sue (it's raining, wahoo!) 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I'm having a hard time believing that dough wouldn't be glued to the coils or linen inserts in my proofing baskets after a long retarded proof. You must be proofing in a bowl or some smooth container right?

If I'm wrong about this would someone please set me straight about how to get the dough to release after 24 hours in the basket. With the slack 80-85% doughs I have been using, I don't think so.

Eric

zolablue's picture
zolablue

Eric, I have been using my linen-lined bannetons, purchased from SFBI (along with the linen inserts they sell - love those, too), and let those all proof overnight in the fridge.  I have not ever had a problem with them releasing.  I don't over flour them either.  Things don't stick to linen like they do to cotton although I did it with cotton dish towels before I bought the bannetons.

The refrigeration of the shaped loaves does definately create the blisters.  I saw it again with the Columbia I baked last Friday morning to take to my family.  Glezer states to wrap shaped loaves on a metal sheet pan making sure to cover with plastic wrap so they don't dry out overnight in the fridge.  I've done that too with Columbia and it works super.  But the linen bannetons draw moisture out of the dough and the Thom Leonard loaves I proofed this way were the ones that also took the best slash.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I'll have to give it a try, thanks. Now--Go PACK!

zolablue's picture
zolablue

I was just going to do that!  But I still can't wait to get back home and bake some bread.  Talk to you soon.  :o)