The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Lot's of sour dough questions

jayfoxpox's picture
jayfoxpox

Lot's of sour dough questions

Hello everyone,

This is my first post in a long time. I attempted to make sour dough  loafs last year but it always gave a really sharp acidic taste that I really disliked. I decided to give it another shot . 

So I'm attempting to make some basic whole wheat loaves.

1) What is the minmium temperature the sourdough ferment at? Last time I placed the dough into a 4C fridge  for 24 hours it was just a dense blob .

2)I'm going for a 50% whole wheat levain ( 68% hydration) approximatively how long  of a bulk fermentation and proof  am I expecting? ( 68% hydration )

3) If I were to decrease the levain to 50% to 25% about how many hours am I expecting it to extend the bulk fermentation(@ room temp)?

4) If memory serves me correct a firm starter is best used when tripled in size ?

5)

I'm thinking of having an ice water bath in an ice cooler ( dough in a glass bowl floating on water with a handful of icecubes )so during the bulk fermentation It will the temperature will start from around  4 C then slowly rise to room temperature hopefully by the time it is fully fermented , anyone tried this?  Hope this works well.

I plan to do the same thing for the final proofing. Hopefully I can get this right so bulk fermentation is 24 hours while final proof works out to about 12 hours.

I'm trying to separate the steps as far as possible so I can hopefully have 1 day for mixing and kneading and bulk fermentation, 2nd day shape and final proof, 3rd day in the morning : toss it straight in the oven . all while keeping minimum time a day working on the dough.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

 

 

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi

I'm really not sure your idea of using a long cold ferment is going to help you produce what you want...ie. a less acidic dough.

You have to produce an active starter which is not too acidic.   From there you have to produce a dough which can ferment well with a relatively small amount of levain in that final dough.   I would think in terms of percentage of pre-fermented flour in the formula.   If you can get down to 10 per cent, but have confidence that your starter will do the job, you should have success.

Relying on a natural leaven alone, and trying to work cold seems to me to be asking for trouble.   Some may not agree with this, and may offer alternative ideas.   But I hope you find what I am saying makes sense, and will help you learn and overcome your difficulties

Best wishes

Andy

Ford's picture
Ford

The 50% whole wheat bread I make is not very sour.  I do not retard the dough.

I make a soaker of my whole-wheat flour (King Arthur) with the liquid in the recipe (scalded milk) and leave that in the refrigerator over night.  There is no leaven in this soaker.

The next day, I remove the preferment of whole-wheat flour and bring it to room temperature, about 72°F.  I mix active whole-wheat starter (100%hydration) with water, honey, butter, and preferment.  I allow this to ferment for about an hour.

The bread flour is mixed with the above, kneaded and allowed to bulk ferment until doubled in volume.  It is then scaled, and shaped into loaves and panned.

You can see that the sour dough starter is not mixed in for a long period and this probably results in a low acid content.  Also, the dough temperature is not very high.  I hope this helps.  If you want the actual recipe I use, let me know.

Ford

saraugie's picture
saraugie

Hi Ford, I would like to see the recipe, thanks.

Ford's picture
Ford

WHOLE-WHEAT SOURDOUGH BREAD

2 2/3 cups (25 oz.) refreshed whole wheat† sourdough starter (100% hyd.), at 70-80°F
1 1/3 cups (11 oz.) chlorine free water
3 3/4 cups (15.9 oz.) whole-wheat flour, King Arthur brand, finely milled*
2 1/2 cups (20.0 oz.) scalded milk cooled to 70-95°F
(1 cup [3.3 oz.] oat meal, pulverized to a flour, optional, decrease flour by 3/4 cup [3.1 oz])
1/3 cup (3.8 oz.) honey, or brown sugar, or corn syrup
~6 2/3 cups (28.3 oz.) unbleached bread flour (King Arthur brand preferred)
1/4 cup (2 oz.) melted butter cooled to 80-90°F(or corn oil ♥)
1 1/2 Tbs. (1 oz.) salt
1/4 cup (2 oz.) melted butter (or corn oil ♥) for brushing dough and the baked bread


~77% hydration.  ~50% whole wheat flour.  3 loaves: ~35.5 oz. unbaked, ~33 oz. baked.

*If you use stone ground, coarsely milled, whole-wheat flour (Arrowhead Mills), then use 3 1/3 cups, still 15.9 oz.
†If you wish to use a white flour starter, then use 3 3/4 cup (15.8 oz.) of unbleached bread flour and 6 2/3 cup (28.3 oz.) of whole wheat flour.  Follow the directions as given below.

For the Soaker, combine the whole wheat flour, optional oat flour, and the scalded milk, then refrigerate over-night.  Next morning bring this to room temperature.


For the poolish, combine the refreshed, room temperature starter, the water, the soaker, and the honey, in a large bowl.  Cover and let sit an hour to ferment.  Sourdough does not need a long time to develop flavor.  Too much time in the acid environment can destroy the gluten.


For the dough, mix in salt, and quarter cup of melted butter.  Blend in as much bread flour as can be mixed with a spoon..  Turn out on to a floured surface, knead well, working in only as much of the flour as to give a non-tacky dough.  The dough will not be as elastic as the white bread dough.  Place in an oiled bowl, cover, and allow to ferment until doubled, about 2 hours.  Gently degas the dough by folding it on itself.


Brush melted butter around the inside of three 5”x 8” loaf pans.  Again, place the dough on the floured surface and divide into three equal parts.  Shape the dough into loaves and place them into the loaf pans.  Brush each loaf with melted butter.  Cover with plastic wrap and let them rise until the dough comes well above the top of the pans, about 2 to 3 hours.  Do not keep the dough at room temperature for long periods as the acid in the sourdough may break down the gluten strands.  (Shaping the loaves to develope the tight skin is important.)


Preheat the oven to 450°F.  Place a broiler pan of boiling water on the shelf below the baking shelf.  If desired, slash each loaf with a greased razor blade or a very sharp knife, making a quarter inch deep cut.  Spray the loaves with a mist of water and place them on the middle shelf of the oven.  Spray the loaves two more times in the oven at two-minute intervals.  After fifteen minutes, set the oven temperature to 350°F and remove the pan of water.  Bake for an additional 40 to 45 minutes or until the interior temperature of the loaf reaches 195 to 200°F.


Turn the loaves on to a cake rack and brush all sides with melted butter.  Cover with a damp paper towel.  Cover the damp towel with plastic wrap.  Allow the loaves to cool before cutting or wrapping.  The loaves may then be frozen, if desired.


I have found that as I have gained experience in handling the dough I have been able to work with slacker doughs, i.e. doughs of higher hydration.  The slacker doughs produce lighter loaves.

Ford

flournwater's picture
flournwater

1)   IMO, 57 degrees Fahrenheit  (14C)

2)  3)  4)  5) See "Ford" and "Ananda" comment above.