The Fresh Loaf

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Pain de Champagne; no, that's not misspelled

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davidg618's picture
davidg618

Pain de Champagne; no, that's not misspelled

Yesterday, I transferred six gallon of new Sauvignon Blanc wine from its primary fermenter (food-grade plastic bucket), into a secondary fermenter (glass carboy), leaving behind billions of yeast cells that had done their job beautifully.  I was diluting the slurry of yeast collected on the bucket's bottom, to make it easier to pour out when I thought, "I wonder if it could bake bread?".


I scooped out 60g of the much diluted slurry--looked like slightly muddy water--and added 60g of first clear flour, and one-eighth tsp. of diastatic malt powder. Well stirred, I put it in the microwave, with the door propped ajar to keep the light on. (76°F). I chose first clear flour for its ash content, and added the malt powder for a little bit more sugar boost. Champagne yeast is expecting a very sugary environment. Six hour later it peaked, I fed it twice more (no additional malt powder), at approximately six hour intervals; the last six hour spent at 55°F in the wine closet while I got some sleep. I baked a single batard this morning with 300g of this 100% hydration "poolish?", 45g whole Rye, 138g each of AP and Bread Flour, and 9g of salt--this is essentially my weekly sourdough formula with about 4% more leavain than usual. I fermented and S&F'd the dough as always. Bulk fermentation was one-half hour longer than with my usual levain, and the final proof took two hours, again about one-half hour longer than usual. Baked: Pre-heat 550°F, reduced to 450°F immediately following loading, steam for 15 minutes, finished at 430°F an additional 15 minutes.


The wine yeast, Lalvin EC1118, is an old friend. As I understand, it was first isolated to make champagne. It is very alcohol tolerent (18%) and ferments cleanly and completely, In addition to fermenting white wines, I've used it over the years for finishing high alcohol beers like Imperial Stout or Barley Wine, and restarting stuck fermentations. I've characterized it to fellow brewers, "If there's sugar in old tennis shoes, this yeast will ferment them."


Here's the loaf




I guess, at the end of the day yeast is yeast. The taste of this bread, obviously, lacks the slight tanginess we experience in its sourdough form, but the wheat flavors, and rye base note come through cleanly.  I'm curious what beer yeast might do. Beer yeasts are especially noted for contributing flavor to beers. There is a beer yeast especially isolated to ferment wheat beers, that contributes a banana-like flavor to the finished beer. I wonder what it would do in bread dough: yet another thing to put on the list to try; it keeps getting longer.


David G

Comments

dpruth's picture
dpruth

Intriguing. I got into brewing beer years before baking bread, and I have to admit that bread has taken over much of my investment at this point.


I've never actually used the beer yeast, but I'm curious. I have used leftover grains that were soaked in the wort, which made delicious bread.


Keep us posted!

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


Great post;


A barm is a traditional way to make bread in the UK.   It was a starter made using spent beer yeast, mixed with fresh flour and water.


If I'm not wrong, both beer and bread utilise saachromyces cerevisiae as the yeast source.   I'm not sure but I have a feeling wine may be the same.


It certainly produced an attractive loaf.


Good work; I hope you can post more on this


Best wishes


Andy

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Hi, Andy,


This yeast is saccharomyces bayanus, but other wine yeasts are saccharomyces cerevisiae, e.g., Lalvin Bourgovin RC 212 (a red wine yeast). 


Your comment about barm is interesting. Peter Reinhart uses the term througout his book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice, but doesn't make reference to its origin. He gives a formula for creating a barm, but it is simply a wheat and water sourdough starter formula, based on an initially acidified (pineapple juice) rye flour seed culture. Why he chose the word "barm" escapes me.


Curious, I googled "barm definition" and found many references that define it as "the yeasty foam" that forms during primary fermentation of beer, or malted beverages.


I've frequently read it was common practice, before the manufacture of bread yeasts, for bakers to get their yeast from local brewers. I suspect this practice goes far back in antiquity. I feel certain brewers and bakers figured out the nuances of fermentation long before the science of fermentation was understood. It was this historical background that led me to try the wine yeast.


I also checked the index of half-a-dozen of my brewing reference books looking for "barm" with no success. Apparently, the term has fallen into disuse by brewers.


I only make one or two beers each year now, but I've made a note that next time I make beer, I'll skim the barm from the fermenter, and see if I can leaven bread with it. It won't be until October or November, but stay tuned.


David G


P.S. I read your postings frequently, and learn from them.


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


Have you read "Breadmatters" by my colleague Andrew Whitley?   I'm pretty sure he has something on barms.


A barm, historically was most definitely based on foam from the beer.   It was then fed with flour and water, just like we feed our leavens here at TFL.


In older times still, I believe the idea of leavened bread came out of Egypt, as a piece of dough left out in the sun started to ferment.   When baked off the improvement in eating qualities through aeration would immediately be apparent.


Remember, also, that water quality in Britain in the Middle Ages and beyond was pretty dreadful.   The everyday drink was beer and ale.   I think what you say about brewers and bakers is absolutely right.


Like the other poster in this thread, I did loads of brewing, but all in the past.   I use to work out recipes to mimic the different types of beer in the UK.   I even used to use the sediment from bottle-conditioned beers and make my own yeast cultures.   I used barley malt syrup in solution to feed the yeast with.


All good wishes


Andy

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Andy,


My work took me to the UK frequently in the early through mid-1980's, often for long periods, where, among other things, I learned to appreciate good cask-conditioned ales, Double Dragon, Fuller's London Pride, and Worthington White Shield. Microbreweries were in their infancy in the USA at that time; and imported beers were one-tenth what they are today, mostly limited to continental lagers. Consequently, wanting to enjoy UK style beers at home, I began home brewing in 1992. I focused entirely on UK beer styles, with the rare exception of an occasional Pilsner. To this day, my best beers are Pale Ales and Porters.


David G


P.S. Haven't read Breadmatters. I'll see if I can locate a copy through the library.


 

M2's picture
M2

Hi Andy,

Do you mind to share some notes (ratio/formula?) on using sediment from bottle conditioned beers to make sourdough bread?

My hubby makes beer at home and he transfers the finished products in kegs.  Sometimes, he'll set aside some bottle conditioned ones.  I never thought of using those.

Currently, I use my own sourdough starter to make bread.  I'd love to try incorporating his beer leftover into my bread.

Thanks in advance,

Michelle

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mini

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Making this loaf was pure play:-)


David G.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Hi David G,


Thanks for your interesting post. Nice looking bread!


Dan Lepard has a barm bread recipe in his book The Handmade Loaf, which I tried some months ago. It was very flavoursome - in fact, my favourite of the Lepard recipes I've tried thus far. I used ale from a can of Kilkenny as a component in my barm - worked well.


Actually, I think Shiao-Ping posted on barm bread....just found it: here.


On reviewing my pics, my barm bread loaf was flatter than Shiao-Ping's, but had a lovely transluscent crumb. Anyway, your post has inspired me to do this one again soon.


Cheers
Ross

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Just some comments following on from those made by davidg618 and rossnroller on this very interesting thread.


On the thread from Shiao-Ping's blog that Ross highlights there are some posts by a UK commercial baker pinpastry/Ken who describes making contemporary barm breads with yeast from local brewers, as described by David G above. If you have read this thread you will have seen this but if not it makes interesting reading as it describes the process in some detail.


David G - congratulations on the pain de Champagne. Do let us know if you get to make bread from your own barm. Thanks too for the information on wheat beers. I am a fan of these beers and wondered what flavours they might yield in bread. I didn't realise they used a different type of yeast.  Regards  Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


I always thought both bread and beer were fermented using the saccharomyces cerevisiae strain.


Can you post some more on this to clarify, as you clearly have some excellent knowledge which I'm keen to learn from.   I know the European "lager" yeasts work as bottom fermenters, and UK brewers use top fermenting yeasts.   The slower working lager yeasts ferment at the bottom of the beer, so there is no protective foam forming on the top.  They also work much slower, and at cooler temperatures; hence the term lager, meaning "stored".   I'd love to hear more from you.


Thanks to Daisy and Ross for adding to this.   I will check out Shiao-Ping's doubtlessly wonderful post on the matter.


Daisy, did you get the message I sent you [top left of the home screen, near the log on?


I think Yozza may be interested in this thread: using some of the Cooper's bottle-conditioned ales from Australia would be just up his street.   I'll give him a nudge to the post.


Best wishes


Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Great to see the development of this thread for those of us interested in baking with beer.


Thanks Andy for the message. I've just logged on and picked it up.  I'm just thinking through my reply as it sparked so many thoughts, particularly about Little Salkeld. Will be in touch soon.   Daisy_A

yozzause's picture
yozzause

I have just been nudged by ANDY, and thanks to David for his excellent posting i can see a great callaboration here as i have recently made contact with Rosnroller here in Perth and we are organizing a baking evening in a couple of weeks at the college i work at, mostly to use the wood fired oven to give Ross a hands on experience and no doubt speed up his WFO building plans.


I am thinking that this will be an opportunity to make 50/50% (5kgs) whole meal and white flour dough with sprouted wheat and or barley.


We will use 2.5 kg of wholemeal and 2.5litres of my home brew stout soaked for 24 hours with a scant amount of yeast. NOW IF i had been smart and kept the sludge from that brewing i could have used that instead of the yeast to get things percolating.


We will then make a conventional dough with some bulk fermentation time still to be decided, WE WILL HAVE TO FIRE THE OVEN talk baking and TFL matters and later   bake off some 18  loaves or so.


With Ross being keen on his sour dough we may well take the opportunity to start up a new sour dough starter with either his starter or mine  and the whole meal and stout for a future bake.


I for my part am very much looking forward to meeting Ross and from his post above think we will have a good time together; if there are any other Perth TFL members out there please leave me a message  there could be a loaf of bread for you to pick up and try and comment on!


Of course we will post the evenigs experience for our fellow TFL members that live in less fortunate places than Perth.


Shiao-Ping and i did do some red wine breads thet were posted early this year as did (Erzobeth  i will have to check my spelling once ive finished this) now we havent heard from her since she holidayed in America I do hope you all loooked after her there. This is another area i have not explored fully yet especially in the sour dough context, How can you get bored and have nothing to do.


Anyway thanks for the nudge Andy and to David for the original post and fellow contributors regards Yozza 

davidg618's picture
davidg618

To the best of my knowledge Ale yeasts are all saccharomyces cerevisiae strains, while lager yeasts are mostly Saccharomyces carlsbergensis (its oldest name) but may also be known as S.uvarum, or S. pastorianus, From the little reading I've read there are a lot of variants, hybrids, and mutations of beer and wine yeasts. I'm certainly no expert. I purchase different beer yeasts primarily by the descriptions of the flavor elements, the degree of attenuation (a measure of its ability to convert sugars to alcohol), and flocculation (a measure of how firmly it packs on the bottom of a bottle) important when you carbonate by fermenting a small amount of sugar in the bottled beer. The spent yeast precipitates out, and settles on the bottom. Also, when I make high gravity beers I begin their fermentation with ale yeasts chosen for their flavor, but finish usually with champagne yeast because it can tolerate high percentages of alcohol. I've noticed that bread yeast manufacturers never mention flavor contributions from yeast, but I'm sure there are some, however small.


I'm interested in reproducing bread in historic ways mainly to experience in some small way how breads tasted in ancient days. But, it's only a sidebar to wanting to first and foremost bake good, modern artisanal bread for family and friends.


David G.


 


 


 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller


I'm interested in reproducing bread in historic ways mainly to experience in some small way how breads tasted in ancient days. But, it's only a sidebar to wanting to first and foremost bake good, modern artisanal bread for family and friends.



Well said, David G - that just about sums it up for me, too. Oh, and there's the mystique of engaging in a simple process of the ages, through which you sense a connection with humanity past and present - and of course, the satisfaction when that process yields something good and life-giving of which you're an intrinsic part. There is pride, but more importantly, there is something larger, outside mere ego, that all artisans intuitively understand...I know there is no need to attempt to articulate that further here.


Cheers
Ross

ananda's picture
ananda

Hey Ross, can I be pithy too?


S. carlsbergenis: "probably the best lager in the world"??????????????


I'm thinking real ale, and quite likely, real bread fiends would dismiss the above slogan as nonsense; I would, anyway!


However, the name for the lager yeast strains, of course, and, thanks David.


Flocculation is important; the last thing you want is your yeast sediment mixing into your beer when you open up a lively bottle.


High gravity beers in the UK are traditionally known as Barley Wine.   I assume they have this name because brewers used a wine yeast to ferment them.   This is exactly as David says, because the wine yeasts tolerate high alchohol levels which beer yeasts are less fond of.


I think we are all having fun at an artisanal level thinking about, and using beer yeasts to make barms to raise bread.   I totally agree with your search for flavour.   Here's the rub, and it links directly back to what you were asking about the bakers


"I've noticed that bread yeast manufacturers never mention flavor contributions from yeast, but I'm sure there are some, however small."


2 things.   Whilst brewers are using yeast fermentation to produce as much alchohol as possible from a given sugar quantity, to give beer with fantastic residual flavours, bakers want only to produce as much carbon dioxide gas as possible.   The alchohol is burnt off in the oven.   Given that mass produced bread is now made in as short a time as possible, any flavour elements derived from fermentation are virtually non existent.   Sad to say that the bread yeast manufacturers' principal aim is to produce yeasts which, when mixed with flour and water, produce as much carbon dioxide gas, as quickly as possible.   How sad is that?


Here's my twopenneth from that: "Modern bread[?] is rubbish!"


Best wishes


Andy

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Be pithy, that is -


Here's my twopenneth from that: "Modern bread[?] is rubbish!"

Not the case everywhere, of course, but in the context of your twopenneth, simply indisputable. I speak as a senior officer of the Pith Polithe.


Sgt RothnRoller

ananda's picture
ananda

I can see you and yozzause are going to have such fun on your baking day.


Too bad I'm 3/4 of the world away; it would be great to join you!


Best wishes


Andy

Atropine's picture
Atropine

Getting back into bread baking after a long hiatus (blasted Atkins diet!).  My old starters were long gone, so I used two sourdough packets sold locally and a champagne yeast packet.


The champagne yeast is still new, so the flavor has not developed, but MAN is it ambitious!  It is like the blob, and the best reacting starter in my kitchen (I have three:  the aforementioned "Champ", "Jack"-slower but stronger in flavor, and "Flower"--who is positively indolent so far....happy to be basking in the lights of the kitchen without contributing anything useful to society).


Made the first loaves with Champ and Jack.  Forgotten just about everything regarding how long sourdoughs take and how to manipulate the flavor, but the breads were still tolerable.  Champ is much more mild (which I remembered from trying this experiment a few years ago), but rose more.  I am eager to keep them all going and see what flavor develops :)

steelchef's picture
steelchef

 It's amazing how a little curiosity can develop such a wealth of knowledge and ideas.

A huge thank you to everyone who has or will contribute to this thread.

I began experimenting with breadmaking, very late in life. It all came about by kismet and some postings on http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewforum.php?f=31

I've been an avid sausage maker/smoker for years and just stumbled into this.  Now I have hobbies that can be enjoyed in all seasons.  

Thanks again everyone.

Atropine's picture
Atropine

Many years have passed, again, since I posted on this thread.

I have been playing with additional beer yeast to make starters.  TWS brews beer, and I tried to use some of the dregs from a batch to make bread with.  The problem was that the hops flavor was just so strong tasting that the bread was unpleasant, only our daughter liked it.  I could see adding in some honey or other flavors to balance out the hops, but...eh.

So then we ordered several packets of beer yeast for me to make starters with.  While I am still trying to get the starters to assert any flavor that they might choose to assert, the bread quality itself has gone WAY up.  Since I have 7 starters in my fridge (five beer and two sourdoughs), I have been just mixing the discards to make loaves of bread until I have decided which (if any) beer yeast imparts any extra quality of happiness to the bread. 

In terms of quality of bread:  the beer breads are probably 50%+ better regarding texture, chewiness, and smoothness of flavor than the Alaska sourdough starters.  I am half tempted to toss the Alaska starters and just go with the beer starters.

If anyone is interested, I will keep updating as to flavor.