The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rosetta Stamp

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UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Rosetta Stamp

Guys, I'm looking for a rosetta stamp for making rosetta rolls.  I believe it's cast aluminum, not plastic like a lot of the roll stamps now available.  Does anyone have an idea where to buy one?  I'll gladly pay postage from overseas.  Thanks :)


 



 


flournwater's picture
flournwater

I've never seen anything like it and I've just spent half an hour searching the web for anything similar   -  no luck.


How big is this "stamp".  Can you provide the dimensions?  If you have a picture I assume you have access to the one shown on this page.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

No, actually, I found it on a pdf linked to from another site..  The url for the pdf is:  http://www.agfdt.de/loads/ds07/eiche.pdf


 


If you open it up, the pictures I pilfered are near the end, as well as pictures of the resulting rolls.  Really look intriguing to me...

flournwater's picture
flournwater

I sent an email to see if I can find a source.  I'll get back to you.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Thanks :)

flournwater's picture
flournwater

No response from Germany, no response from Italy.  Maybe the transatlantic cable is broken or a satellite crashed.  Couldn't be that neither my German or my Italian is that bad; could it?

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

I haven't received any responses either :(  Frustrating.  Need to find someone on vacation over there to bring some back.

flournwater's picture
flournwater

We can split the cost.  You send me the plane fare and make the hotel reservations, I'll pay for the stamp.  Waiting time  -  about one week.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Is this to make a knotted roll like these?


Norm's Double Knotted Rolls


They are so easy to shape by hand, I don't know why you would want to use a stamp, unless you are making 100's. And, even then ...


David

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

They are for stamping "Rosetta" rolls, which are similar to Kaiser rolls, however the ideal Rosetta rolls bake up hollow(puffed) in the middle. The stamp helps achieve this.


You can read about Rosetta rolls(recipe) in Daniel Leader's Local Breads.


"Rosetta rolls are made by mixing a large proportion of biga with just a little bit of flour. This unusal formula results in a very active dough, with the energy to spring up dramatically when it hits the oven. Because the dough has so much yeast, and because the special rosetta press forces the air pockets into one area, the rolls often come out of the oven with hollow centers, which makes them perfect for sandwiches." Daniel Leader, Local Breads


 

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Would it serve your purpose to use one of the rosette irons in a swedish rosette timbale set as a stamp to imprint your rolls or, perhaps, use this method:


http://tumyumtreats.blogspot.com/2008/03/rosettas-rolls.html


to form the roll?

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Thanks for the idea, but I'd really like to find the stamp.  I was hoping someone from Italy or Germany would be familiar with them and have a url available for where I could buy one.

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Somebody went to a lot of work to make a pattern and mold that stamp.  There's got to be a source somewhere. 

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

That was my thought, but I also thought I was pretty good at searching the web.  That said, my attempts in German and Italian didn't turn up one restaurant supply house, so I'm thinking I'm missing something in the translation.

Zenith's picture
Zenith

The San Francisco Baking Institute sells a stamp that makes five petals with a center hole; you can choose large or small.  Maybe that will work??  www.sfbi.com/baking_supplies/html  Scroll down to about mid-way on the supplies page.

greydoodles's picture
greydoodles

You have a typo in the URL. I think this is correct:


http://www.sfbi.com/baking_supplies.html


The image is too small for me to see the details well. They look like plastic stamps though.

Seshat's picture
Seshat

...but spend 5+ hours being obsessive/compulsive looking for this?


 


I believe I found a site that you can order that stamp, or a very similar looking one, from.  Try rbshop.it and find where it says "stampi per pane" or, since it appears the site went down while I was typing this message, google "panino rosetta stampo."  And I tried searching again and found this place www.ruffa.biz/stampi-pane.htm and they have it cheaper than the first place I mentioned.


 


Hope that helps!


Katie

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

By Jove, you found it!!!!  I'm writting the 2nd site right now to see if they'll ship to the states!


 


Thanks a bunch

greydoodles's picture
greydoodles

Katie did find it. Here's a link to the other one she found:


http://www.rbshop.it/stampi-per-pane,43.html


Great work, Katie!

Seshat's picture
Seshat

Please do let us know how you make out with the company.  I rather enjoy hand utensils and if you have good luck with it, I may consider getting one, too.  :)

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

No response yet to my emails... I've sent two.


 


We may need someone who speaks Italian to intervene.

greydoodles's picture
greydoodles

Relax. I has only been a day, and not all companies have the staff to respond to all emails daily. The odds are that they can find someone to speak English faster than you can find someone to speak Italian.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Still no word.  Guess I'll have to call next week.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

 


well, cristina.frigerio@ruffa.biz


is the email contact given for exporting.


if you have any success - count me in for one - PM/whatever and we can share the shipping / etc.  I also do PayPal which some companies accept - makes international payments easier if that helps oil the pasta water . . .


from the general info page, they have a min. order of 150 euros - that could be a sticky point.


www.rbshop.it does PayPal, does not have a direct order page, but is priced significantly higher.



didn't see a min. order on their page.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Well, I was going to get one of each size, and if you want one, we're 1/3 the way there.  I could easily pick out some other things to purchase, so the 150 Euros doesn't bother me.  I did send the first email to Cristina, and the second to the info address.  Just wish they'd acknowledge the emails.  I keep checking my spam filters.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

I've got some friends in Germany that may be able to penetrate the shield of silence - but we need to coordinate efforts or we'll wind up with a double order [g]


I'm in for the big one (105)


UnConundrum is in for a big and a small


 


anybody else?

flournwater's picture
flournwater

I'm in for the small (95) depending on what the final cost might be.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Yep!  Just confirming I'm in for one of each :)

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Dillbert, did they give up on tracking one down?  If so, I'll try to find someone in Italy and keep you apprised.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

okay - summary de'jour is:


Dillbert - 1 pc 105 mm size


UnConundrum - 1 pc 105 mm size
UnConundrum - 1 pc 95 mm size


Flournwater - 1 pc 95 mm size


to-date we have located two sources for the cast stamps


one has both sizes, 18 Euros each
there is a minimum 150 Euro order, which we may or may not get excepted from.
they do not advertise payment methods, but a wire transfer at my bank is $60 plus currency conversion costs; add transportation.  a credit card order may be an option - unknown at this time.  note that 4 x 18 is not 150 Euros, so vendor the first may not be an option - which means the smaller size may not be an option.


the second has only the 105 size, no minimum order, but they cost 42 Euros.
they take PayPal; so add small PP fees and transportation costs.  unknown at this time if they can 'special order' the smaller size.


anyone else interested, now be the time to speak up!


UnConundrum -I doubt you want two big ones; let me know any other items you may want to order if you think that will bring up our minimum order.


Flournwater -if we can't get the small version, do you want to substitue the big size?


 

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

If you have the time to research, here's two more sources:



The Viebi Group seems to carry it, but there are no prices or info on shipping. On the bright side, they have an "English" button on their site, but no shipping info. No price info either. I've registered, but my application is awaiting approval.  It's been about a week now, and my application was never acted on.  



Bano.com also carries it. The price here is 24.60 Euros which is far better than rbshop. I registered, and received an acknowledgment indicating that my account is waiting approval. There is no shipping information on their site.  Same as above, my application wasn't acted on ...



UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Forgot to mention, I want them bad enough, I'd probably be in for more than one each if we don't have enough takers :)


 


 

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Dillbert, I'm gonna pass on it.  I figured out I can make one for about 1/4 the cost of the purchase/shipping costs.  I'll just have to spend a bit more time at the lathe.


 

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

contacted my ex-secretary but they were just off for two weeks vacation -


standby . . .

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

thought I posted an update, looks like user error strikes again.


those .it sites are not responding to phone calls or email from either continent in either English or Italian.  not sure why they opt to have web sites . . .


anywhey,,,  some friends from southern Germany are visiting Italy in May and will attempt to get some "up close and personal"


will keep you posted.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

I'm hanging in there.  I appreciate the efforts :)

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

In the meantime, has anyone attempted Daniel Leader's Rosetta Rolls recipe? Seems to me that there is a discrepancy in the amount of instant yeast. Calls for 2 teaspoons which is listed out to be .4 ounces. That can't be right, could it?


What recipes are you guys using?

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

I'm not familiar with that recipe... If you could post a link to it, I'd check out the weights for you....


 


I guess I'm planning on using a basic Vienna bread to start with, high hydration, maybe 80%.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

trip sched -


 


I checked on their travel plans, 19 - 31 of May in Italy.


and who was it that said baking bread was easy?.....

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Thanks Dilbert.  I'm anxiously awaiting an explanation of why these are so hard to find :)

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Any word from Italy ?  

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

breaking news from Bodensee - the rosette stamps are on order at ruffa!


more to follow!

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

I really don't know how to respond.  Watch, they'll be back ordered!  LOL


 


Thanks for all the effort!  

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Any news Dillbert?  I have all these possible recipes rolling around in my mind ;)

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

[sigh] - no news.


I worked for a company that had a subsid with HQ in Torino - that was several thousand years ago....  I wrote snail mail to their personnel department to see if the whereabouts of my old colleagues was known (they've probably retired - they are not listed in the company email directory) but no joy on that front either.

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

I have a friend checking in Germany now....  but he reported that he's not getting much feedback.  He contacted the school from which the pdf is posted above, but hasn't heard back from them yet.  I believe he'll be over there a few more weeks.  Maybe.....

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

UC -


got an email note today - the pane stampi have arrived in Germany and are being forwarded to me.


holely bread crumb - this might actually work out!

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Any news Dillbert ?

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Wow! That's great. I was giving up as my friend in Germany stuck out.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

no [sigh]


 


I hate to bug people who are doing me a favor, but looks like . . .

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

so I gently bugged, and as of today the stampi are in the Post from Germany to me . . .


geduld was mentioned . . . .

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

LOL.  It does seem that we Americans have a different pace :)  


Great news !!!!  Thanks for the update Dillbert.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

UnConundrum -


send me a pm with your snail mail - I tried to email these but it kept compaining about "attachment too large"


UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Dilbert, did you try making any yet?  I made one attempt that was nothing spectacular and then I ran into some family issues that have taken me away from baking.  I'm hoping to make another trial run tomorrow.


I'm thinking of going with a lower protein flour and pizza oven temps in my WFO.  Want to go for that sudden oven spring, and I think the lower protein can take the heat better, like Caputo.


You have any thoughts?

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

This weekend is the first in a long time we haven't had the a/c running full tilt!  I generally asvoid baking when running the a/c - with the cooler weather I'm over-ready to get started again - I collected a couple specific recipes - just looking at them doesn't appear to be terribly out of the ordinary so I'm thinking there's some tensioning technique involved to produce the right spring&rise.....

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Well, I gave the recipe a shot but not really happy with the results.  I did an 80% hydration (mixed by hand) which seemed right.  I didn't like my flour mix (I lowered the protein).  I do believe the stamp should be used right before you put the rolls into the oven.  Maybe I'll have time to try again this weekend.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

UnConundrum -

did my third batch today.  I think I've learned a few things.  not enough to declare success, but.....

first - researching 'pani rosetta' I found its description as a "bread with no crumbs."
color me dumb, but I have nadda' clue what that means.

I found this: http://de.fotolia.com/id/20479380
I found another pix where they looked more like drop biscuits.
I recall them as being a slightly softer variant of a good German Broetchen.

so I set up to do one of my fav Broetchen recipes - overnight sponge + diastatic malt -theory being I can add a bit of butter / milk / (?) to soften it later . . . .


it is typcially about 62% hydration so I opted to make half at 62% and half at 72%
lesson 1 learned:  for the stempi, wetter ain't better.
lesson 2 learned:  do not thine dough over-proof.

following up on your observation, I did not stempi them untill just before hitting the oven.
on a stone, with ice cube steam; vented humdidity at 5 mins.  all worked.  good crust, lousy crumb (overproofed), good taste.
the higher hydration did not retain the imprint as well as the lower hydration.

lesson 3 learned: 
I portioned the dough out at 70-80 grams /each for the 10 cm stamp.  too much dough; portion control is important


here's the mixed results:
upper row is the 62% hydration (what was left - fresh bread has a short shelf life...)


the lower four are the 72% hydration - flatter, more over proofed, less retained definition.  since I knew how this was supposed to turn out, I slashed one as a control.



next up is a 65% hydration, 50 gram portion to stempi, with 40 gram butter.


 


 

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

Yours look much better than mine did.  I've gotta learn to make smaller portions for testing too....


 


Just a thought, you're reacting to overproofing AND reducing the hydration.  I think I'd stick with the higher hydration and make sure they're not over proofed as one test.  The high water content is what I think would cause the petals of the rose to blow up...

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

definately a valid thought - actually, I increased the hydration as a 'test' - I've been using the 62% formula for a while - make a dang decent Broetchen - but I was also hoping to get a little more puff-up in the petals....hence the thought of increasing the hydration.


the sitffer dough simply "felt better" in the stamping process - of course the whole thing begs the question "definiton or no defintion?"  looking at that pix it's a nice smooth topped roll with star shaped marks . . . not what I recall, but heck....


small batches are good for pointing in a direction - but I can tell you, small batches make for challenging 'measures' and "small errors" don't "scale up" all that well (g)

UnConundrum's picture
UnConundrum

I believe my last test was actually 80% hydration, hand mixed.

rjerden's picture
rjerden

Most Italian Rosetta recipes use a final hydration of about 52%, which is quite dry. I make these rolls every week and get excellent results, however, it took me a long time to get both the ingredients and the technique right. The rolls get floured when first made and again after being stamped. The second rise should be done with the stamped side down.


It's important to use a weaker flour, definitely NOT 100% high gluten. The mixture needs to be very extensible, but not too wet, in order have enough strength in the walls to puff UP, and not OUT. I also use a folding technique which captures a small cavity in the center of the roll, which then expands during the first 5 minutes. It's very important to get enough high heat on both the top and bottom of the rolls at the beginning of baking in order to get them to puff. I use a Cuisinart convection countertop oven and bake them on a stone half way between the heating elements with the convection turned on and both elements red-hot at maximum temp. I then turn down the temp to 450F after they puff completely. I spritz frequently until they have puffed.


You really need an oven with an upper heating element to get good results. The rolls need to really get a lot of heat and be kept moist for the first 5 minutes. Steam would be great if you can get it.


Here is my mixture for 16 rolls, 80 grams of final dough each


550 grams of White Lily all purpose flour (this is a 100% soft red wheat flour)


250 grams of White Lily bread flour (or KA)


100 grams of KA white wheat flour


I think the Caputo pizza flour might work by itself.


After mixing, reserve 150 grams for the final mix. Use the other 700 grams in the biga.


Biga:


700 grams of flour


350 grams of filtered water


1/2 teaspoon of instant yeast


Mix just until it barely comes together, no more.


I ferment for 12-24 hours at room temperature in a gallon plastic zip lock bag with a small opening to let the gas out.


Second mixture:


All the biga


The 150 grams of flour mixture reserved


100 grams of unfiltered water (90 in the summer, 110 in the winter)


10 grams of dark Karo syrup or Malt syrup


1/2 teaspoon of instant yeast


1 tablespoon (15 grams) of salt ( to be added after 3 minutes of mixing)


Mixing:


I warm up the biga in the plastic bag for 40-60 sec in the microwave depending on ambient temperature.


Add everything to the mixer except the salt.


Mix on low for 6 minutes. Add the salt after 3 minutes.


Mix on next higher speed for 7 minutes.


Return speed to low and add about 10 grams of olive oil or else spray the dough while it's mixing to coat all the surfaces so it comes loose from the bowl. Stop.


Leave it in the mixer covered with plastic wrap for 20 minutes to rest and start to rise.


Make 16 rolls of 80 grams each, flour both sides and let rise for 1 hour.


Stamp the rolls, flour again and flip them stamped side down to rise for another hour.


See my Facebook album for the folding technique. The recipe there is currently in Italian, but I am making a version in English. I also show how to stamp the roll using an apple slicer (just stamp halfway down) if you don't have the bread stamp .


http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=23657&id=100000051251593


 

parkita's picture
parkita

I seem to be restarting this thread on the eve of 2012. Anyone interested in ordering a stamp from one of the above retailers?

mcnancy's picture
mcnancy

Hi folks. I just got my copy of Local Breads and want to make Rosetta Rolls. This might be old news, but I found a stamp at the San Francisco Bread Institute online store:

http://www.sfbi.com/baking-supplies/roll-stamp

Regards,

Nancy

 

NPF's picture
NPF

These are not Rosetta/Michetta stamps, but Kaiser Roll stamps.

mcnancy's picture
mcnancy

Have another look. These from SFBI have the circle in the center, like a Rosetta stamp. Kaiser Roll stamps do not have a circle in the center. 

NPF's picture
NPF

Sorry, but no: it looks like a rosetta, but they will not make a rosetta/michetta milanese bread - they will give a sharp "cut' to the dough, while the real rosetta/michetta stamp is much more rounded (as the original photo shows), pressing the dough down but not cutting through it. I doubt that these stamps would be able to produce a bread with the interior hole and sharp rise, which is characteristic of them.