Anis' Baguettes, Question @ dmsnyder &/or mcs &/or you
Hello,
OK, so I have made this recipe several times and, well, I have not been wholly impressed. The flavor is delicious, but the dough is in general difficult to work. I don't and up with anything that resembles David's las post, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9839/ficelles-made-anis-bouabsa039s-baguette-formula%E2%80%9D nor a dough that resembles Mark's in his baguette shaping video, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9994/short-baguette-video
Not that I would consider myself in a league with Dmsnyder or MCS, I just end up with a dough that sticks to everything, is nearly impossible to form, and slashing it is kind of useless. I have tried ranges of KA AP & bread flours with no apparent change in the loaves.
My question is, should I just hold back on some of the water, or is there something I am doing to not develop the gluten enough?
The recipe I used this time is...
300g KA Bread flour
100g KA AP flour
300g Water
8g salt
1/4 tsp yeast
Procedure was
- Mix to combine, rest for 20m, kept in fridge from this point on
- "knead" I do this by using a fist to spread the dough as far up the sides of the bowl and the folding back in, probably 6-7 times
- stretch and fold after 20m, I do this in the air-kinda like stretching a pizza, then folding it back onto itself
- retard 20ish hours, remove from fridge and S&F again
- let come to temp, usually ~ 2 hrs
- pre-shape, rest 20 m, then shape
- Let rise about an hour, bake under steam for 10m then dry for 15m
Note: I don't use any flour for kneading or stretch and fold, or pre-shaping. These pissed me off some so I rolled them in flour for the final shaping.
This made these 3 loaves
You can see the scores have nothing but color difference going for them, I knew they were going to be this way in such a slack dough, so I went a little overboard. Also, a crumb shot for david, since I have asked for his input
Sliced too soon, but I was hungry. It is interesting that the crumb was most open where I couldn't 'tuck' the dough because it was too sticky. The left side of the front loaf in top picture is what is shown split above. There was sporadic flour on the counter when I was shaping them and this end didn't get any.
Anyway, Thanks in advance, Rick
Comments
Hi Rick,
I'm not the expert at Bouabsa method but I have made them maybe 10 times.
I think the first thing I would say is you need to mix and knead/stretch and fold your dough at room temperature. This can be done in an hour doing a stretch and fold in the bowl every 20 minutes. Once you have a nice smooth well developed dough, cover and cool in the fridge for 20 hours. I have shortened this to as little as 6 hours but you pay a price in flavor.
When you remove the dough from the cooler, dump it on the well floured counter, divide and pre shape into rough rounds. Let it set at RT for 1 hour covered. Pre-shape into 6-7 inch logs and proof in a linen couche. After 15 minutes, shape by stretching gently until you have about 12 inches. At this point, I do Mark Sinclair's baguette shaping and tightening.
There are two schools of thought about shaping baguettes. One is with a dry or very lightly dusted counter after the pre shaping. The counter gets scraped dry and just lightly dusted. The other way is to spray a little oil on the surface and and fingers and shape without any further oil. I've had good luck with both but I prefer the light flour for baguettes. I use the oil on the counter for everything else like rye or larger sourdough loaves. The oil is a thin layer that prevents sticking to the work surface. You can also use water which is also clean. I digress. Try the oil once. The dough will shape nicely if you give it time to relax between dividing and shaping.
To conclude, your major problem IMHO, is the early timing and development. Mix and fold for an hour. Chill and allow to warm for 1 hour before shaping. No extra flour unless you want to dust lightly just before slashing. Good luck.
Eric
Hi Eric,
Thanks for the input. Did you make the switch to fresh yeast by the way, I have been wondering...
Anyway, I have tried this at room temp for the first hour, then retadring. It hasn't been much if any better. The last time I did that, it was tripled in size after 12 hrs in the fridge and could only be "formed" by stretching. While again delicious, not what I was after. I also like 'sticking' dough to the counter to work it, before I added flour to this batch, most of it stayed stuck to the counter, and my hands, trying to touch the dough quickly and everything.
So, my question really should have been phrased as "Is this really a 75% hydration dough, or are you adding flour to get a decent consistency?" If it really is, I think I will go back to the starting point and try again, or make some 58% curmudgeon baguettes.
Thanks again, Rick
Rick,
I see David commented on your issue and he is much more experienced at this bread than I am. It sounds like our methods are similar as to timing.
Just one further point I would make. Recently I have been using a similar formula and method to make baguettes with a variety of flours. I've been trying to stick with the hydration of 72% making the only variable the flour. I'm fairly amazed at how much different the dough comes out with different flours. The softest dough by far has been the Wholefoods 365 Organic AP. I've done 5 batches with 5 flours and the differences in the dough handling are notable. The 365 I found to need counter flour to be able to handle and shape. It might be better for you if you started using a strong bread flour which would be more easily manageable once you developed the gluten. BF generally absorbs more water and the dough doesn't feel as slack when shaping. The bread is slightly better with a softer flour but from a learning standpoint, there is nothing like success to build confidence. As David mentioned, you could lower the hydration also to improve handling. Whether you lower the hydration or switch to BF, the resting period between dividing and stretching and shaping becomes more important. You don't want to tear the dough and you don't want to be rough with handling. Preserving the bubbles is important.
And on the yeast situation, I switched back to IDY. I tried fresh for a full Month and liked the results but I can't say I could tell the difference in the breads. There is a difference in the way the dough handles in the beginning. If you were raised on fresh, I can see where you would like it. For me it's just another detail to chase down every Month getting fresh yeast. So much of my baking is with a natural Levain that I don't use a huge amount of commercial yeast. A pound is lasting over a year at this point (IDY). So, I gave up on it.
Eric
Hi, Rick.
Your baguettes don't look bad, but your crumb is dense for a 75% hydration dough. This suggests inadequate gluten development, too rough shaping or both.
You might want to cut down the hydration to 70% until you are more comfortable with the slack dough.
My procedure currently is as follows:
1. Mix all the ingredients except the salt.
2. Autolyse for 20-60 minutes.
3. Sprinkle on the salt and do 20-30 stretch and folds in the bowl. Let the dough rest covered for 30 minutes.
4. Repeat the stretch and fold in the bowl with 20-30 strokes three more time.
5. After another 45 minutes, do a stretch and fold on a lightly floured board. Rest for 45 minutes and repeat stretch and fold. At this point, the dough should be pretty strong.
6. I generally leave the dough in a clean, lightly oiled container at room temperature until it has expanded 25% or so, then I refrigerate it for 16-24 hours.
7. Divide the dough right out of the fridge and pre-shape.
8. Cover pieces and rest for 60 minutes.
9. Shape into baguettes and proof for 45 minutes on a couche, covered.
10. Score and bake with steam.
The dough remains a bit sticky, but it is much less so, if the gluten is well developed. The additional stretch and folds on the board have helped a lot.
I hope this helps.
David
From comparison, I am not working mine as much. I also worked this a bit much after retarding. What flour do you use though, AP or Bread?
Thanks again, Rick
Hi, Rick.
I use AP or, sometimes, KAF European-style Artisan flour.
Once the dough is retarded, you want to handle it gently to keep the bubbles.
David