The Fresh Loaf

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newbiebaker - 2nd rise, dough spreading out

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bwraith's picture
bwraith

newbiebaker - 2nd rise, dough spreading out

Hi newbiebaker,

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with a very wet dough, how do you get it to hold its shape during the second rising period? because, while letting a loaf do its second rise, it turned into like a giant pancake almost... or was this too wet?

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If you could give more details about the recipe you are trying it would help. I took the liberty to start a new thread. If you could provide as much detail about what you've done to get to the point where the second rise is spreading out like a pancake, it would help. Even provide photos if you can. It would help to include the recipe you are following and as much detail as possible about how you handled it along the way.

Also, the term second rise seems unclear to me. It could be a stage of "bulk fermentation", i.e. before final shaping, or might be referring to a "final proof", i.e. after shaping into a loaf and just before baking.

Bill

newbiebaker's picture
newbiebaker

hello, first thanks for making a thread for this here. second, im trying to make like a simple artisan style frenchbread or sourdough french bread.  this past weekend we made a cottage loaf and during the second rise it spread out and didnt hold its shape, i think the dough may have been too wet for this kind of application, but for like a loaf of holely, chewy  sourdough, how do i get the dough to be wet and hold its loafy shape?

 

as for technique, we mixed up a dough and kneading it, let it rise, punched it down, kneaded it a bit, then shaped the two loaves and stuck em together, then covered it to rise again before baking, and when we checked it,  it looked like a big pancake. it spread out and flattened and was no longer the original shape we had put it in. that problem, was easily solved... less moisture in dough

 

as for the french breads i do, the recipe is pretty basic, mix yeast and water and some sugar, then add to flour and salt (i have been using bread flour, but im not sure if this is what i want  in order to achieve the results i desire more) then i knead for like 12-15 minutes (with a wetish dough) rise it, then fold/knead again, then shape it in a loaf and let it rise again, but my problem is it can never hold its shape, is it too wet? then i slash and bake... makes tasty bread, but i want to get something that doesnt look like it came from the supermarket.  i know experimentation and trial and error is the best way to do this. i apologize but i do not have pictures of it.

 

oh, and my apologies for my improper terminology, when i say the second rising, i guess i am referring to the final proof, the time after shaping, but before slashing and baking. thankyou. 

bwraith's picture
bwraith

Newbiebaker,

In order to really get specific, you need to measure the weights of your flour, water, and salt with a scale, and you need to consider the type of flour you are using. Different types of flour need different amounts of water to achieve the same consistency. Nonetheless, I'll mention a few basics that may help you narrow things down.

It is possible that the dough just has too much water, but you would probably be noticing how "gloppy" the dough is during the early handling stages. If it's wet but not very, very wet, then it is possible the gluten is just not developing sufficiently. The one key technique for developing gluten in wet dough is to "fold" it periodically during the bulk fermentation. It will stiffen considerably with 2 to 4 "folds" every 20-40 minutes during the bulk fermentation phase. How many you need is affected by numerous factors, such as how much acid is in the dough, how much salt, how wet it is, and how much it was kneaded during the initial mixing stage. The other thing is that it's usual, though not always necessary, to use some kind of mold or other similar device to hold the shape of a dough during the final proof. For example, baguettes are usually nestled in the folds of a cloth (couche), and often boules or batards are placed in a "brotform" or "banneton", i.e. a basket or other similar mold to hold the shape. That's probably especially true if it's a very wet dough, since wet dough would normally spread out after a while, even if it's the right consistency. If you don't use a mold, it may not be possible to make certain types of bread come out right, so you might be restricted to using less water, as you described. That's fine, but you'll probably find you want to use shaping forms as above, if you want to stay with wetter doughs. You tend to get bigger holes and irregular sized holes when you use wetter dough, but then it will be much harder to get normal loaf shapes just letting it rise on a counter without any support or mold.

Folding can be done in a bowl, if the dough is rising in a bowl. It can also be turned out onto a table and folded. The dough can also potentially be fermented entirely on a counter on a bed of flour, with the folds being done periodically on the counter.

To fold the dough, pull each of it's four sides out, stretch a little, and fold over onto the dough, like folding a letter. Do this for all four sides. You can then leave the dough as is, or if you want to get a little fancy, keep track of the eventual "top" of your bread, and put the "top" of your dough down on the table to fold, then turn it over so it is lying seams down and "top" up on the surface of the counter or bowl each time. That will keep the eventual top of your bread nice and smooth and tensioned and seal up your seams with the weight of the dough each time.

I hope the above is helpful. There is much, much more on this site, and what I describe above I'm sure has been covered very well. There are some great books, too. Good luck with the process.

Bill

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I would say go with your instincts.  If you think it's too wet for you, work in some more flour until you're happy.  I like a soft but dryer dough for french sticks. and then it is much easier to shape, rest, shape a little more and rise, slash, bake.  Flour everywhere! (makes me looks busy when someone drops by)  Don't let a wet glob push you around!   When I pour out a dough onto my counter top and it starts to run, I encircle it fast with a little mountain ridge of flour and then work it in.  Tame the beast!      Mini Oven

newbiebaker's picture
newbiebaker

thanks alot you guys this information is rather helpful, and so far i now understand a good bit of information on doughs, breads and so forth (most of which is due to this website) but what does kneading do? i know that it mixes and forms gluten, so could i knead a few minutes less to get a more open crumb, like with baguettes(sp?)? or knead more to make a finer crumb, like for sandwich bread? and i think when i get a chance, i am going to see if AP flour works better for an artisan stylre sourdough french bread, and do a few foldings too... i think i got the steam issue figured out pretty well and i think i am the only college kid who not only knows what a broiler pan is, but uses it! thanks for the help you guys.

Thegreenbaker's picture
Thegreenbaker

well, kneading is done to create longer gluten chains/strands and this helps get igger holes in bread. there are also other factors. It is best to knead as long as the recipe tells you.

it isnt just the kneading that effects the crumb. Fats in the dough help to get a softer crumb and usually  (or so I have found) you have a closed crumb because it softens the gluten.

So, if you want french bread with big holes, you need a lean dough (just flour, yeast (or starter) water and salt) high hydration levels and long preferment and proofing stages at cooler temperatures.

If you want a sandwich loaf then fats and milk are great to soften the dough but you wont get huge crumb.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thegreenbaker 

newbiebaker's picture
newbiebaker

yes this does help quite a bit. what are some basic times you knead things like say a ciabatta vs a frenchbread? i think i will try and experiment a loaf of bread this weekend with some of these new techniques and suggestions.  when i knead dough though, should i be looking to get a good frim skin almost as i knead? i find as i knead, it will come, then it will almost break, then may or may not come back again, this happens with wet or dry doughs. does it mean i may be knead too much? thanks again.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 When you think it might break, time to let it rest.  Good to avoid letting it get that far, might be an indication that you're working in too much flour too fast.  Ciabatta dough is normally much wetter than french.   I like to mix ciabatta dough with just a sturdy wooden spoon, beating it for about 3 minutes and let it sit 30 minutes before I start kneading, then it takes on less flour.  It's a good trick.  Can do it with all kinds of doughs.  The easiest mistake one makes in the beginning is to use too much flour.  Remember your dough has to be able to stretch as gas forms.  The tight skin is good when you shape your loaf before a final rise tucking and pinching it under to stretch it fully, resting 5 minutes gives the dough chance to relax so you can stretch some more.  --Mini Oven

michaeld's picture
michaeld

bwraith posted a link to some good photos of supporting a slack dough during the proof in the thread Sourdough Ciabatta.