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Question regarding Nippon Baguette

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Question regarding Nippon Baguette

I have been trying to make Nippon Baguettes recently with zero luck (the original recipe was introduced by shaopin here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16213/mr-nippon039s-baguette-formulas). The temperature inside of my house is spot on 22C, as specified in the recipe, and the outside temperature is about 18C, matching what's in the recipe as well. My problem is that the baguettes do not rise properly. The first time I stuck to the recipe mostly, but proofed them for 45 minutes rather than an hour - flat-ish baguettes and the scoring marks barely opened. I blamed over-proofing, so for the 2nd time, I shortened the proofing time to only 30 minutes - no rise in the oven at all this time, I got pancakes rather than baguettes! This past weekend I tried again, going the other direction and proofed them for the full 60 minutes, baguettes did rise, but just like the first time, still flat-ish with unopen scoring marks.

 

Looking at the formula, there's 15% starter and 0.1% yeast, ralatively low, but with 3 hours of bulk rise and 1 hour of proofing, I don't understand why the bread wouldn't rise properly. For those of you who have tried this bread,

- What flour did you use? AP or Bread? For the first two times,  I used a combo of AP and bread flour, for the 3rd time, I used all bread flour.

- Just to confirm, the starter in formula is 100% hydration right? Mine was 100%,

 

FYI, my starter is active since I used it for other breads at the same time, and they all rose beautifully. I thought the yeast I used for the 2nd time was to blame, but I got new yeast, tried in other recipes with good results, and used the same batch here with no luck. I make baguettes using different formulas regularly, never got such flat ones before, I am entirely confused. Oh yeah, the dough does rise and get bubbly during bulk rise, and the gluten developement is amazing after such long autolyse. I want to try again, but don't know what to change next. Help!

crunchy's picture
crunchy

I tried making them according to the recipe once, got the ugliest flattest baguettes I've ever seen. The dough took 6 hours to double, which may have been the problem - the dough got very sticky, which I attribute to amylase overload. Yesterday, I tried making them using my 50% hydration starter and adjusted dough hydration appropriately. Much better results, although still not perfect. They proofed a lot better than the first batch, and the slashes opened up more. They taste like no other baguette I've ever made: sweet, creamy, and wheaty, all in the same bite. Enough to make me want to make them again and again, until they look as good as they taste!

 

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Good to know I am not the only one. So you think the starter was the culpit? Mine's not very sour (but active though), as far as I understand a firm starter has higher acidity, maybe the dough needs that? The formula does specify PH value for the dough, which I have no way of measuring. I've always thought the sourness of the starter only affects tastes, but it affects the rise as well?

crunchy's picture
crunchy

Here is a quotation from Dan DiMuzio, "It sounds like your levain may be very enzyme-active, so you might want to examine the feeding schedule, feeding proportions, or maintenance temperature of your levain to minimize the possibility of excess enzyme activity.  It is often too much amylase enzyme that causes stickiness, and too much protease enzyme that weakens the gluten structure." (you can find that discussion here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13738/pain-au-levain-what039s-secret).

And another pertinent discussion, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12630/effects-preferment-question .

The reason I switched to the stiff levain for the second batch is that I've always had better luck with it (I've been maintaining a 50% hydration starter for a couple of years now, and it's never failed me). I frequently have the problem of the sticky, slack dough when I use a liquid starter instead of the stiff one, and from what I understand, it's at least partially because of the enzymatic activity. I had the same problem when I tried proth5's sourdough baguette formula, which also uses a liquid levain.

The batch of baguettes made with the stiff levain had not a hint of sourness to it. If I didn't put the starter in the dough myself, I wouldn't have detected it.

 

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

I can't believe I just read through those 2 threads, more scientific than the papers I am reading for work. ;)

Anyway, from my understanding (the 2nd link is especially helpful) that the culpit for my flat baguetts maybe too long of an autolys? Because

1. There might be too much enzyme activities during the 12 hour soak, and my starter/yeast are overwhelmed by the amount of simple sugar in the dough?

2. The gluten was over developed, which leaves no room for ovenspring?

For problem 1, sounds like a starter with less enzyme activity (would that be a firm starter? my 100% starter does well in all other doughs, never had any problem with stickiness or not enough gluten) would work better, and in general the rise schedule has to be longer since yeast/start needs more time to get over the sugar shock;

For problem 2, sounds like a stronger flour would work better, and a SHORTER rise is necessary.

Since I have no way to judge enzyme activies, I will try the firm starter route. Another interesting discovery is that the Australian flour Shiao-Ping used is very strong (14% ),  maybe  I need to use  a stronger flour? Like Sir Lancelot from KA.